Comments on Bais Avraham: Der Roite Bendel: The Red Thread

I wonder then, why was this adopted by the observa...

2008-07-01T11:00:00.000-04:00

I wonder then, why was this adopted by the observant Ashkenazik Jews from way back. Also, why wasn't it adopted by the Sephardic Jews (they use charms - such as the chamsa - which is clearly Arabic. If it is really assur and d'oreita - d'oreisa (sp?), the how is it that SO many observant Jews adopted it. I would have thought that it would have been cut off immediately by the rabbis of that time (especially since they were so much less into materialism than they are today). Any ideas?

Avakesh - Dovi (the blogmaster) has forwarded me 4...

2008-05-09T17:02:00.000-04:00

Avakesh -

Dovi (the blogmaster) has forwarded me 4 e-mails which point this out. I feel that the texts we have in our editions is the more convincing in this case for these reasons: 1 - The custom of wearing a string on the hand or finger has not been observed amongst the Jewish people until fairly recently, yet there was a prior custom to wrap a read thread from kever Rachel about the middle of a woman who wants to conceive or is expecting. If there was a prior accepted practice of wearing red threads about the hand or finger, then I would assume that the correct girsa is "ain darkei ho-emori." However, it was never done. 2 - Even without the tosefta as an asmachta or proof, one can still make an argument that the bendel is Darkei ha-Emori. 3- I have seen and heard our version of the Tosefta (where we say "darkei ha-emori) quoted in teshuvos and piskei halacha. Incidentally, a friend of mine at YU just e-mailed me (as I am typing this) that he asked Rav Hershel Schachter about the bendel. Rav Schachter responded that it is an issur d'oraisa and cited this Tosefta as the source (as does Rav Eliashiv). 4 - It is too long to get into here, but from the Teshuvos ha-Rashba it appears to me that there are two Types of segulos. The first type are natural remedies that work via physical/scientific means, yet we do not understand the physical mechanisms behind them. The Rashba uses magnets as an example; in his days they did not know why magnets repel and attract, but everyone observed that they did. See also the gemoras in Shabbos 67a and Chullin 77b which make a distinction between seguolos which operate via natural (yet mysterious) mechanisms and those that are "mystical" or “magical" which are Darkei ha-Emori. The second type of segula is an action or item which invokes a specific hashgocha pratis. An example of this would be the nachash ha-nechoshes which healed the Jews from the poisonous serpents. See Rashi on Bamidber 21:8 who writes that the serpent didn’t heal, rather it brought people close to ha-Shem and He healed them as a result. Once the Serpent became worshipped though, and its powers of healing were attributed to the serpent itself rather than to Ha-Shem, the serpent was then destroyed by Chizkiyah ha-melech and this act was praised. So the question is, how do we tell the difference between a segula which invokes hasgocha and one that is darkei ha-Emori? It seems to me that the difference is that a hasgocha-based segula is one from which we have a mesora from the rabbonim or daas torah. After all, the nachoshes was transmitted to us by Moshe Rabbeinu. So, it seems that any segula or charm which operates by "mystical" or "metaphysical" properties and for which we do not have a valid mesora or Torah source must be suspect. Now, there was never a rabbinic or torah-based masora for wearing a red thread about the hand, wrist, or finger as a segula. The closest mention of such a thing is wearing a red thread about the finger, yet it is identified as darkei ha-emori by the Tosefta! This fact, combined with the evidence that it was worn by other religions about the wrist as a ףcharmפ prior to being adopted as such in Israel, points strongly to darkei ha-emori.

The Tosefta exists also in a girsa "EIN bo mishum ...

2008-05-08T23:43:00.000-04:00

The Tosefta exists also in a girsa "EIN bo mishum darkei hoemori".

That doesn't help to matir something that may be D...

2008-05-08T13:21:00.000-04:00

That doesn't help to matir something that may be Darkei ha-Emori, though. Perhaps they should hand out something else?

Sorry I don't have a source.The reasoning I heard ...

2008-05-08T13:12:00.000-04:00

Sorry I don't have a source.The reasoning I heard is much simpler.
A person asking for tzedaka shouldn't feel as if they are just receving charity without giving something in return, however small the value is.

IT raises their self esteem in some way

True about the tosefta, and I mention that in the ...

2008-05-08T11:19:00.000-04:00

True about the tosefta, and I mention that in the post. B' kitzur, paskening on issues of Darkei ho-Emori is tricky - sometimes you are dealing with practices of the Goyim which are not precedented in the halachic literature, and other times you are. We tend to be very strict when there is a precedent or potential precedent. It is not clear to me, at least from the limited commentary I have found on it, that the tosefta would practically limit its prohibition to only the tying of a string about the finger. For this reason I treat the tying of the string about the wrist as a sofek l'tzad chumra.

Even setting aside the tosefta, it is possible to make a valid argument that it is darkei ha-emori.

However, you are correct, there are several poskim who say that it is not assur, yet not encouraged. Yet, for balance, there are others who assur it outright. In response to an inquiry I sent over a year ago to Rav Elizahiv, Rabbi Efrati (Rav Eliashiv's gabbai) responded that Rav holds the red thread is at best a sofeik d'oraisa or darkei haemori and, at worse, an issur d'oraisa bli sofek.

I have heard one of the big Litvishe poskim in NY ...

2008-05-08T10:49:00.000-04:00

I have heard one of the big Litvishe poskim in NY say that although he doesn't encourage such things, there is nothing wrong with it. Also the Tosefta talks about a red string around the finger not the wrist.

Fair point - the truth is that I have never learne...

2008-05-07T22:47:00.000-04:00

Fair point - the truth is that I have never learned the Moreh Nevuchim apart from a few sections about ten years ago before I did teshuva and went from a Bavarian Oberlander to a Breslover chosid.

This statement about darkei ho-emori I came across as a citation in many of the teshuvos on darkei ho-emori. I haven't seen it in the original. Normally, I always look up original sources unless it is the Moreh or other sifrei philosophy.

Despite the Rebbe's overall aversion to the Moreh, I do think that the Rambam is 100% right in this case.

I am suprised that you quoted Moreh Nevuchim as a ...

2008-05-07T22:12:00.000-04:00

I am suprised that you quoted Moreh Nevuchim as a source since Reb Nachman zal was aginst learning it.